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Stiglr
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 11418
Location: Portland, OR, USA
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 Posted:
Sep 07, 2009 - 10:08 PM |
 
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I'm not saying our FMs and our system is completely bulletproof, peril, in fact I go out of my way to preemptively mention some of its problems. But, I also note that WE can and do spot our own problems, rather than hide from them, pretend or deny they don't exist or try to convince others that we "are correct, be sure" knowing this isn't the case. That's the point I was making.
None of these games OR sims are going to be 100% accurate; but that's no excuse to purposely leave things wrong that really don't need to be. |
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Dweeb
Joined: Sep 07, 2009
Posts: 4
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2009 - 03:09 AM |
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You're a loser Stiglr. That's all there is to it. You're a discredit to TW. You've got 10 years of doing this and can't even find the data or balls to, right now, go to that thread and give Widewing a straight answer.
What a waste of time. Adios. |
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peril
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 6180
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2009 - 04:01 AM |
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Stig is not a hard core FM data collecting guru, but lucky for you lot I am. For starters you need 'Americas Hundred Thousand page 436-468', which obviously I cannot post here legally.
I would think Dave would be basing his data stats on this book, he built the WBs planes using it as well. It's a good book, but it has a few errors we have found, not to say the F2A data has errors but the P38, P40 areas do.
Quote page 456 re the export model 339E:-
'The Zero could out-pace, out-climb, and out-maneuver the Buffalo but it could not out dive it.'
F2A-3
@ 13,000ft/5000lb the sustained 360deg turn takes 27secs
@ 13,000ft/5500lb the sustained 360deg turn takes 21secs
Normal flying weight for the export 339E was 6,620lb.
The 239 model given to the Finns was lighter @ 5276lb 4x guns fighter with 110Gal fuel, no armor. It did also have 100 less hp then the F2A-3, which would cancel some of the weight gains to performance. Max speed for this model from the Finnish manual (yes I have these) was ~248knts @ 14,100ft.
The power and weight difference make it impossible to nail exactly, but I think the Finnish 239 with no armor and R-1820-G5 would come close to a match for the A6M-22 in some areas.
But not 'likely' the Ki43 or A6M-21.
I have not built the Buffalo for TW, it would be an interesting comparison.
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Also!
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/search.jsp?N=0&Ntk=all&Ntx=mode%20matchall&Ntt=f2a
Sort results by: NASA Center | Date Added to NTRS | Publication Year
There are a total of 9 record(s) matching your query.
Sorted by: Date Added To NTRS in Descending order
Flight measurements of the lateral control characteristics of narrow-chord ailerons on the trailing edge of a full-span slotted flap
Author(s): Sawyer, Richard H
Abstract: Results are presented of light tests made to determine the effect of flap deflection on the lateral control characteristics of a modified brewster f2a-2 airplane equipped with partial-span narrow-chord ailerons on the ...
NASA Center: Langley Research Center
Publication Year: 1947
Added to NTRS: 2006-11-06
Accession Number: 93R21664; Document ID: 19930092374; Report Number: NACA-TR-883
Power-on longitudinal-stability and control tests of the 1/8-scale model of the Brewster F2A airplane equipped with full-span slotted flaps and a new horizontal tail
Author(s): Toll, Thomas A
Abstract: No Abstract Available
NASA Center: Langley Research Center
Publication Year: 1942
Added to NTRS: 2006-11-06
Accession Number: 93R21898; Document ID: 19930092608; Report Number: NACA-WR-L-709
Calculated and measured turning performance of a Navy F2A-3 airplane as affected by the use of flaps
Author(s): Kauffman, William M
Abstract: No Abstract Available
NASA Center: Ames Research Center
Publication Year: 1943
Added to NTRS: 2006-11-06
Accession Number: 93R21930; Document ID: 19930092640; Report Number: NACA-ACR-3I30, NACA-WR-W-6
Additional power-on wind-tunnel tests of the 1/8-scale model of the Brewster F2A airplane with full-span slotted flaps
Author(s): Lowry, John G
Abstract: No Abstract Available
NASA Center: Langley Research Center
Publication Year: 1941
Added to NTRS: 2006-11-06
Accession Number: 93R22955; Document ID: 19930093665; Report Number: NACA-WR-L-708
Flight tests of F2A-2 airplane with full-span slotted flaps and trailing-edge and slot-lip ailerons
Author(s): Sawyer, Richard H
Abstract: No Abstract Available
NASA Center: Langley Research Center
Publication Year: 1943
Added to NTRS: 2006-11-06
Accession Number: 93R21929; Document ID: 19930092639; Report Number: NACA-ARR-3L07, NACA-WR-L-272
Power-on wind-tunnel tests of the 1/8-scale model of the Brewster F2A airplane with full-span slotted flaps
Author(s): Lowry, John G
Abstract: No Abstract Available
NASA Center: Langley Research Center
Publication Year: 1941
Added to NTRS: 2006-11-06
Accession Number: 93R21897; Document ID: 19930092607; Report Number: NACA-WR-L-707 |
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SF
Joined: Sep 07, 2009
Posts: 5
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2009 - 10:32 AM |
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| Stiglr wrote: | More on this...
I went back to that thread, or another like it and the jawdropping misinformation just kept coming.
One guy said, "The Brewster could climb with a Zero". What???? I did a cursory check on Wikipedia, and found that, with the right rose-colored glasses on, he was actually right... in a slanted, misleading way.
Problem was... it's the early, F3A1 version that had a 3060 fpm climb rate (compared to the Zero A6M2's 3100 fpm). That version was NOT used for anything but flight testing and only 11 were built. Now, let's go check the version the US Navy was using, the F2A3... ah, there y'go: 2440 fpm.
So, it appears, Dale Addink and his crew are taking only the best stats for their Buffalo and eschewing others that do point out that a Buffalo was never anything approaching a world-beating aircraft. Or, they're "hypothesizing" that the Finnish export Buffalo, the one stripped of the added armor, radios and stuff the US Navy used to transform Buffalos from what Pappy Boyington called a "sweet little ship" to the dog of legend that the Buffalo actually is... is a more "representative" Buffalo.
I suppose you could make a case for that, as the Finns relied on their version heavily and had some success with it... but it's the (mis)representation in the arcade arena format that slants things so much.
In AH arenas, you're just as likely to find a Finnish Buffalo going up against a Japanese Zero as you are to find a Spit engaging a F4F, or any other ridiculous matchup. Utterly silly... but I can see now how it makes for self-appointed experts there talking about how effective a fighting platform the Buffalo was.  |
Aces high brewster 239 v A6M5B climb chart...
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Stiglr
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 11418
Location: Portland, OR, USA
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2009 - 11:46 AM |
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You'll notice I was simply repeating what I read from OTHER posters on your board. One of them quoted that F2A1 climb rate in his post to try and support the "climbs with a Zero" complaint another guy had posted. I didn't make that up, he did. *shrug*
Also, note in this chart here (which I don't see supported by any game files, so it could easily be gleaned from any source and put into an Excel chart to "prove" your flight models are whatever you'd prefer to believe), you're also comparing your Finnish (early war) Brewster to a very much later war A6M5 Zero. About as inappropriate comparison as you'll find. What, what's that you say? AH doesn't have anything but the late war Zero? Oh, really? No -21 or -22s? No -3s? Sheds some light on why they don't have any number of highly representative aircraft... it's a GAME, not a SIM, so "representation" doesn't mean much... |
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SF
Joined: Sep 07, 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2009 - 12:43 PM |
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| Stiglr wrote: | You'll notice I was simply repeating what I read from OTHER posters on your board. One of them quoted that F2A1 climb rate in his post to try and support the "climbs with a Zero" complaint another guy had posted. I didn't make that up, he did. *shrug*
Also, note in this chart here (which I don't see supported by any game files, so it could easily be gleaned from any source and put into an Excel chart to "prove" your flight models are whatever you'd prefer to believe), you're also comparing your Finnish (early war) Brewster to a very much later war A6M5 Zero. About as inappropriate comparison as you'll find. What, what's that you say? AH doesn't have anything but the late war Zero? Oh, really? No -21 or -22s? No -3s? Sheds some light on why they don't have any number of highly representative aircraft... it's a GAME, not a SIM, so "representation" doesn't mean much... |
My data was from HTC's own plane versus plane Speed and climb performance charts found here. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/planeperf.php
We do have an early war zero, the A6M2. Im still curious as to why you care about AH to begin with? |
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Stiglr
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 11418
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2009 - 04:30 PM |
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Because I mistakenly (I see now) assumed that AH subscribers were more sim fans than gamers. I assumed they cared about accuracy, realism, history, etc., rather than just "gamer furball fun". So, I began looking at your BBS, and watching some of the discussions, wondering if anyone there might be interested in a more detailed sim... and concepts like engine management. As we've seen, I was dead wrong about the priorities of the AH community...
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1plus44
Joined: Sep 07, 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2009 - 06:16 PM |
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Let me rephrase myself, we have the B-239, which was lighter than the other export versions. Sent mostly to the Finns, who used them very well. Also called the F2A-1. The Finns used the B-239 had a kill ratio of 26-1.
I have a very good hunch you're clueless about the game in itself, and what you're talking about. Everything you're arguing about, is baseless, and you're using 1 pilots account, and your 1 time of flying, to people with thousands of hours of flight experience. |
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Stiglr
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 11418
Location: Portland, OR, USA
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2009 - 07:34 PM |
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I stand corrected. On that count. But on the need for engine management (which is not baseless at all), and my assessment of AH pilots, I still hold the same opinions. |
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M_Sabata
Joined: Mar 31, 2008
Posts: 1741
Location: Austin, Texas, US of A
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| Posted:
Sep 08, 2009 - 10:54 PM |
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Whoa, I didn't check the forum one day and all this!? 
I appears to be too late for any more input... |
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peril
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 6180
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2009 - 02:05 AM |
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SF
Joined: Sep 07, 2009
Posts: 5
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 09, 2009 - 08:03 AM |
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| Stiglr wrote: | Because I mistakenly (I see now) assumed that AH subscribers were more sim fans than gamers. I assumed they cared about accuracy, realism, history, etc., rather than just "gamer furball fun". So, I began looking at your BBS, and watching some of the discussions, wondering if anyone there might be interested in a more detailed sim... and concepts like engine management. As we've seen, I was dead wrong about the priorities of the AH community...
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You can feel free to look at it as a game v sim all you want . That's your opinion, but don't try to pretend you know the priorities of the AH community. My take on TW v AH is TW is a flight controlls sim, and AH is a flight dynamics sim. Again that's just my opinion. That doesn't mean i think AH is a better game than TW, just diff priorties. I prefer AH's flight model over any other sim simply because i don't get the feel of a bunch of mashed together flight envelopes. A historical correct flight model is more important than historical correct flight controls for me anyday. I don't look at this as what sim is better, they each have their pros and cons. What works for you may not for others, that's life. This will be my last post on this BB, and with that i wish you your game all the best. |
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wolfen1086
Joined: Apr 02, 2005
Posts: 435
Location: United States
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| Posted:
Nov 11, 2009 - 08:36 PM |
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| Stiglr wrote: | I don't know what they're smoking over there at AH, but I just took a humorous trip through some discussions about the I-16 and the Brewster Buffalo.
Among other eye opening  comments... at least two guys say they find the Brewster outturns a Zero.... whaaaaaaaaaaaat???? Now, a Buffalo should have a "good" turn rate, sure... but still not competitive with a Zero.
They cite both planes having a good climb rate.... double whaaaaaaaaaat??? A Buffalo? CLIMB??? They must not know anything about Malaya...
And the comment about there being "swarms of Buffalo" in the early war arena running rampage.... oh, for pete's sake... |
I just saw this You knwo I gotta comment on anything Ah related LOL
Stiglr, just wait a while let then get their WW1 mod out and watch the fun when the DR1 out runs, out turns, and out guns a zero LMAO
(you know it will happen)
TW may not be perfect, but at least when I download a mod its as accurate as possible |
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Stiglr
Joined: Aug 03, 2003
Posts: 11418
Location: Portland, OR, USA
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| Posted:
Nov 11, 2009 - 08:49 PM |
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I think they HAVE released their WWI mod... not that I know anything else about it... |
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